Podcast transcript

Improving the schools estate report 

This is Anne McCubbin talking with report authors Mark Diffley, Cathy Macgregor and Liz Ribchester about improving the school estate. Mark, what’s the study about?

Well there are almost seven thousand children and young people taught in state schools across Scotland. So it’s really important the buildings they’re taught in are fit for this purpose. 

Ten years ago many schools were in a state of disrepair and a major programme of improvement was begun in 1998 with financial support from the Scottish Executive. What we’ve been doing is reviewing what has been achieved so far and what still has to be done in terms, not only of the number of schools, but also the design quality of the improved schools and the extent to which they meet learning and teaching needs of 21st century education.

The report reviews the impact of the Scottish Government and Cosla’s joint school estate strategy, which was launched in 2003. It looks at how many schools have been rebuilt or refurbished, how much has been spent by the Government and councils and how effective the new and refurbished schools are.

And what did you find?

Generally a lot of work is being done on improving schools, but much is still needed to be done to bring school buildings up to scratch. To begin with the Executive’s interim targets to renew 300 schools by 2006 have been met. However at current rates of progress we estimate it could take another 20 years to renew all schools currently in poor condition.

Our detailed sample study of 18 schools has found that new and refurbished schools could be better designed, though pupils and staff are generally satisfied with the design quality of their renewed schools.

Also we found that not all councils estimate the number of pupils they expect to attend their schools ten or more years ahead. But they’re making decisions about school investments that will last much longer than ten years.

Cathy, how much has been spent on improving school buildings and what’s been achieved so far?

Over a period of seven years - up until April 2007 - £3.9 billion had been spent or committed by councils and Government. By April this year it’s expected the total will exceed £5.2 billion. Some of the schools that are being improved by this investment have yet to be completed. But, by the end of 2007, 219 brand new schools had been built and many other schools had been refurbished or had smaller improvements made to them.

Unfortunately we can’t say how many have been refurbished or improved in other ways, because there’s no clear definition of what refurbishment actually is. For example, if a school has a new boiler or a new roof or replacement windows, is that necessarily refurbishment?

When all the school projects currently in the pipeline have been completed by around 2012 we estimate that around 400 brand new schools will have been built and many more will have been refurbished, extended or improved in smaller ways.

And how much more still needs to be done?

Last year, in 2007, the Government and councils reported that about a thousand schools were in poor physical condition. That’s about a third of all schools. We estimate that at current rates of progress it could take another 20 years to bring all these schools up to scratch.

Our report found that there had been difficulties with the data at a national level. So the strategy did not set out exactly what needed to be done or how it would be achieved.

However both Government and councils have been working to improve the data and it should be possible for them to be clearer in the near future. That’s why we’ve recommended that the Government and councils review the strategy now, set clear targets for what has to be done and how it will be achieved.

They will also need to give particular attention to how it will be paid for.

Liz, the report says that schools could be better designed. What needs to improve?

Our main findings relating to school design were that pupils and staff are generally satisfied with the design quality of new build and refurbished schools, but there was room for improvement. New schools met good practice standards for some aspects, such as safety and security, but fell short in others.

Refurbished schools were generally not as well designed as new schools. Two areas of design in particular showed room for improvement. The first was environment conditions, which means heating, lighting and ventilation. These were aspects that were considered poorly designed generally and which staff and pupils also often highlighted as a problem.

There was also little evidence that environmental sustainability was taken into account as a key factor for design in general, although we did find pockets of good practice. For example some schools had incorporated motion sensors to control lighting or had been designed to maximise natural daylight. So there are early signs that sustainability is being taken more seriously now. 

Schools also need to be designed more flexibly to adapt to changing needs, such as pupil numbers, curriculum changes and community needs. 

Councils could do more to share good practice and ensure the quality of design improves.

Finally Mark, what do you want to see happen as a result of your report?

Well our report makes a number of recommendations aimed at the Scottish Government and at councils and we’d like to see these taken on board. 

Firstly, we’d like to see the school estate strategy renewed by the Scottish Government and by councils. This should include a clear financial plan for how the new and schools still needing refurbishment will be paid for.

Secondly we recommend that councils should estimate pupil rolls for at least ten years ahead and should review these assessments at least annually. 

And finally we recommend that the Scottish Government and councils should do more to identify and share good practice in school design, particularly in relation to refurbished schools, so that the quality of design keeps improving.

Mark, Cathy, Liz – thanks very much.