Prisons report – podcast transcript

Simon:  We’re here today to talk to Phil Grigor, Project Manager, Audit Scotland about Audit Scotland’s latest report Managing increasing prisoner numbers in Scotland.  OK Phil, what’s this report about?

Phil: The report looks at how Scotland, and the prison service in particular, is managing the increase in prisoner numbers. The report looks at several issues such as the rise in prisoner numbers and possible reasons behind this, the extent and effect of overcrowding in our prisons, the costs of accommodating these prisoners including the long-term investment in the prison estate and also a look at community sentences in Scotland.  

Simon: Why did you do this report and what have you found?

Phil:  Well the prison service spends around £280 million a year running Scotland’s prisons and we need to make sure this money’s being spent wisely.  And the issue of prison overcrowding has received a lot of parliamentary and media interest lately and there’s significant amounts of money being spent in the prison estate to improve the conditions in prisons.  What we found is that almost £300 million has been spent in the past 6 years to improve prison conditions but most prisons are still overcrowded.  For instance, one in five prisoners share cells designed for one person.  We also found that overcrowding restricts the service’s ability to provide rehabilitation activities such as skill training which aim to prevent re-offending after release. Currently two thirds of Scotland’s prisoners are reconvicted within 2 years of release so obviously this is an area of interest to both prisoners and the general public.  The final thing we found was that plans to increase the prison capacity which includes the building of three new prisons may not be sufficient to accommodate the continuing rise in prisoner numbers.

Simon: Some people reading the report and listening to what you have to say there could say that this paints a grim picture.  Are you saying that the prisons service is essentially a disaster waiting to happen and, if so, who’s to blame for that?

Phil:  We’re saying that the prison service has managed a significantly increased prisoner population despite no real increase in running costs and we’re also saying that prison conditions have improved but the focus should now be on providing sufficient places to accommodate projected numbers in the future.

Simon: So why has the government spent so much time on improving conditions for prisoners rather than just building more cells?

Phil:  Well in 2002 the prison service recognised that many prisons were Victorian and not fit for purpose and since then they’ve spent around £300 million improving conditions.  Most of this had been significantly improving 4 prisons but other prisons have also benefited from extra funding for example installing toilets in cells which has all but ended the practice of slopping out. This is good news for prisoners and also good news for the tax-payer as it makes legal challenges from prisoners over this issue less likely.

Simon: OK, well what would you like to see happen now?

Phil: I think the Scottish Government needs to think about how to improve its forecasting of prisoner numbers and to set out clear plans on how it will accommodate them.  This means providing sufficient prisoners places and also access to activities which help to reduce re-offending after release.

Simon:  OK Phil, thanks very much for your time.